Episode 54: Mastering LinkedIn Copywriting With Joe Mckay
This episode is a special one as I speak to self-proclaimed ‘nobody’ on LinkedIn, Joe McKay.
He’s a LinkedIn ghost-writer who creates success for his clients whilst building a copy empire for himself.
We dove into…
- How to craft impactful thought leadership content on Linkedin
- Joe’s top tip for ideation and creation
- The secret sauce for attention-grabbing hooks
If you want to get into the Linkedin content creation game, or you want to level up how you play, take a listen.
Remember to:
Follow Joe on LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jmckay89
Follow ‘Mellonie Francis’ on LinkedIn:
Transcript:
Mel:
Hi, everyone, welcome back to Innovative Minds. So, as you know, I have been doing a LinkedIn Gods series and bringing some of the biggest LinkedIn Gods on the show to really pick their brains of how they’re thinking right now about content creation. So one of my friends, Joe wrote to me and said,
Hey, Mel, I have an idea for something different. You’ve done LinkedIn gods. Awesome.
What about LinkedIn, nobody’s micro creators, like me trying to figure it out. Not doing anything too amazing.
But you know, the real story, like what our fears our struggles are, what are our little small wins that we can celebrate?
Hey, here’s my numbers from last quarter 50,000. Nothing special. But you know, I’ve been giving it a good honest, go here, following all the hacks and tips.
So how would you like to bring me on?
So I was following Joe for a little while. So he had actually caught my attention. He wasn’t a LinkedIn, nobody, in my perspective, when I’ve, you know, caught on to him. And, you know, he was someone in my sort of lens, as someone that was going to be coming up in the game. So he might have been thinking, and I’m a LinkedIn, nobody. But you know, in my eyes, he was actually somebody. So I really wanted to, you know, I sometimes like to bring on other creators to bring people on who are earlier in their journey journeys, and I’ve brought them on on my podcast, because I think it’s really important to connect with different people who are going through a journey. So you can feel really relatable, because sometimes it’s really hard to relate to, you know, someone that’s got to 100k followers, like, you know, Jasmine, Alec, and Richard Vanderbloemen, rich more, and you kind of look at them, and you go, Oh, God, like where they’re so far away from you. So, Joe, I wanted to bring him on, because I think he is going to be one of those people, but he’s able to share with us early on in his journey, so you can really relate. So with that, welcome, Joe.
Joe:
Thanks, Mel, thank you for for accepting the LinkedIn, nobody pitch. It is I mean, I think that’s the thing about the platform isn’t it’s full of people who have kind of climbed the mountain, I guess, and, and we get inspiration from those people. But everyone, everyone starts somewhere. And so yeah, just I guess, taking the chance today to maybe talk through what it’s like, you know, starting out and kind of how to just just keep going and focus on the positives.
Mel:
Well, what’s interesting with you is you’ve got a bit of an advantage, because you kind of know how to write copy, which is one of the first challenges and hurdles that I find, and you’ve got a bit of a marketing background, as well. So I feel like, you know, you’ve got an advantage to most of us who once started somewhere, we had no idea how to write or conceptualise or no, say, college IQ, we like, you know, so I feel like you’re able to probably climb faster. In many ways. When I look at it, then when I began my journey, what about you? Do you think that do you feel that you’ve got that advantage?
Joe:
I think it’s I think that’s probably one thing I’ve learned is something that feels like common sense or common knowledge to you isn’t always gonna be that to other people. So I don’t necessarily feel that way about myself. But I’m sure there’s other people out there that, you know, that would identify that and it’s something to remember, as well, you do have skills and kind of talents to offer, you know, whatever stage you’re at, for me with the writing and kind of knowing how to write, I’m not sure about that. I, I’ve just practised a lot. You know, I think Stephen King and a bunch of others will tell you, it’s reading a lot and writing a lot. And that’s kind of how you improve. And I’ve really just just tried to do that, but but also trying to get better every day.
Mel:
So tell us about your LinkedIn journey. Like where does it start? Like, what are you doing at the moment? And like you’re sort of working right and doing LinkedIn and freelance. Can you please like, tell us like, where it all started and how you go about it, doing what you’re doing?
Joe:
Yeah, it really started I made a concerted effort. I think it was Dickie bush and Nicholas Cole for those guys probably it just under a year ago and made a concerted effort.I didn’t know what platform but made a concerted effort to want to write every day. I took six months off work last year to become a dad for the second time.So in between bottles and nappies and stuff had a bit of downtime and wanted to be doing something so I just June last year, committed to writing every day whatever was kind of in my headAnd pretty soon after that, I realised that, you know, LinkedIn was a platform to share some of those thoughts. So just again, committed to posting, you know, whatever I was writing to sharing with, with an audience.And that was just, that’s just a learning journey, you know, you’ve been there, you just kind of write whatever comes into your head, and some things go well, and some don’t.But the process of doing it and kind of releasing, it really helped me it was just getting things out of my brain, and out there, and then I could think about something different, you know, so I got hooked on it, to be honest, like from June, July last year, I just, it became really quite compelling to have an outlet for my thoughts, put them out into the world and kind of keep thinking.And yeah, kind of in my situation, now, I have like clear, you know, supportive boss and employer. That means I work nine to five and in marketing in a tech business, but the ghost writing and LinkedIn content stuff is sort of weekends, evenings, mornings.Whenever the kids whenever the kids aren’t around close, it’s, it’s yeah, it’s been a whirlwind. How,
Mel:
how is it? Like, do you find writing for yourself and writing for someone else? You know, like, is it different your process?
Joe:
I think so I think, I think my side hustle helps my day job. And my day job helps my side hustle massively, I think they feed off each other in a big way.Because you’ve got to, you’ve kind of got to get to the point, you know, you realise, you realise techniques and strategies out there to get someone’s attention and hold it. And think about audience and things like that.In terms of writing for myself, or someone else, I probably, I’m less rigid, maybe this is the other way around, I’m less rigid and fixed with my own content and brand, like, if I have a thought, even if it’s not, right, in my kind of content, pillars or whatever, I’ll still share it, I’ll still post it.Whereas if, you know, if it’s writing for a client, or for my day job, you know, we’ve got our, our topics and our pillars, and I need to stick within those.So if anything, I’m more relaxed with my own stuff, I take more licence. And when it comes to a client or my, my day job, it’s it’s really about trying to stick stick to the rules, you know, stick to the guidelines and and just make sure you kind of achieving that.
Mel:
My belief right now about LinkedIn, and the framework of what I think that I’m pushing my clients my copywriters to be really aligned on is, when you share a thought, you need to start the first sentence needs to start with that pain point to hook people in.So I’ve really moved towards frame this, this particular framework, and I’ll give more licence back to creativity, once we really nail it. But the first line needs to be hitting the pain points.So now when clients are working with us, out, they have to with any thoughts that they share, they have to give, or they’re sharing that thought and what the pain point is, so that the writer, the ghost writer, like yourself, is able to come in and really be clear that that’s what I have to use as my first line, like I have to put that in as a hook.And then I will share their thoughts. And hopefully it’s a solution that they’re able to give.Yeah, and my third point has been that when they you know, share this, this framework that I’ve established that if they’ve got something deeper that they can actually then put a comment towards like say they’ve got a podcast like this one, if I’m talking about like ghost writing, I will actually link this particular podcast so that post for me that framework right now is what LinkedIn is looking for.Its like a depth of a pain point being solved. Whereas last year, they were really looking at selfies and personal brand, but this year, I think they’re really looking at you know, they’re really assessing for deep thought leadership. What’s your perspective on that?
Joe:
Yeah, I definitely think leading with the pain is is the best kind of hook. And if I’m writing like for my own channel, or for client, it is what’s what’s the pain? We’ve got a solution, but what is that pain and kind of highlighting that? To really dial in on that I try and use their own like the customer’s language or your targets language, like if you’ve had a call with him, literally just copy and pasting what they’ve said about it. No editing, no kind of wordsmithing just lay the message like the pain out in their own words. I think that resonates.And then I think you’re right about depth as well. Like when I kind of started writing that that more empty kind of shallow, inspirational quote that could relate to anything.I’ve just never felt comfortable. You know? like with my audience and with my experience, like, I’ve never wanted to share stuff like that, because I don’t feel like an influence in that way. And I think that’s the, that’s the interesting piece is it is now more about a deep solution to a unique pain or problem, you know, how have you actually solved this and we don’t want just a feel good quote, or, you know, a bit of inspo it’s actually what, you know, what’s actionable? What can I? What can I take away from this to improve in my daily life? So I think you’re spot on with that.
Mel:
Yeah. When when you come to ghost writing or writing content? How do you go about like, you know, helping, because if someone wanted to, like, listen to this podcast, and like, Okay, I’m really I’m starting my LinkedIn journey, how do I start writing? What’s the process? Like, how do you? Do you ask an interview your clients like to get? What’s the pain point? Like, what’s your, you know? What’s your cadence?
Joe:
Yeah, so certainly, I mean, initially, it was, it was talking to myself in the past, you know, so, and again, it’s a really great exercise from from Dickey and Nicholas Cole, you know, just write a list of every problem that you’ve solved in the last year. And you if you reflect on each of those, you’ll realise what was kind of the pain or the challenge that you faced before you’ve gone through and solve. So if you don’t have a client, or there’s no one kind of external to you, that you can, or you want to talk to just reflect on your own challenges and pain, and then kind of write to yourself in the past, I think is a good start. But otherwise, yeah, it’s just whether it’s a client or someone that you know, you chat to at a barbecue on the weekend, or whatever it might be. Trying to understand the emotion around it, and then, and then kind of write from there. And if I haven’t solved the problem, like, if I don’t know what they’re going through, and I don’t have a solution, then I just don’t go there with my content, you know, I’m not trying to, I’m not trying to be everything to everyone. But if it’s, you know, if it’s an experience that I’ve lived through, and that I have kind of got through the other side of, then I’ll try and try and share that as best I can.
Mel:
And that’s like a good filter, you know, to have like, you should be able to have lived through it in like, provide the solution. Like, that’s how you can filter like, am I gonna share this? Is it good enough to go out there? It’s a good metric. So do you like, you know, does your customers like come on? And when you’re a ghost rider, right, one of the talents is like, how are they able to go and think back? Like, what happened last weekend? And, you know, this is the problem? Like, how do you get them to go to that? And remember, because sometimes I get customers and like, blank.
Joe:
Yeah, it’s hard, I think you’ve got to depends on the person, like I find a lot of people prefer to kind of prep in advance a little bit, or at least know roughly what you might be talking to them about. So I think that definitely helps have an idea of where you want to go and share that with them before you talk. Once you’re in the situation. For me, I’ll ask open questions like you know, what was going through your head or tell me more about that, you’re not trying to lead them down any kind of path, you’re really just trying to, someone who used to work in law enforcement actually said to me, you know, I’ve always kind of tried to use this in interviews, you’re in an interview, you’re trying to create a space for them to feel with what they know. So any word or any kind of sentence you insert is space that you’re taking up that they can’t feel. So for me, it’s really simple, open ended questions. And just listening and to be honest, silence is your friend. In that case, like if you, if you jump in and try and push them forward through more response, you often shut them down. Whereas if you just sit there, in silence, more thoughts and things will come to them. And you’ll eventually get to that, because the Interstate is what’s really interesting, you know, that is where the pain is the emotions and the desires and the feelings that are in there that you know, if I walk past the story on the street, I wouldn’t know that but that’s the really interesting stuff that’s in their head and just sitting there quietly, kind of waiting them to finish their thought often is where the the gold is, I reckon.
Mel:
Yeah, yeah, it’s a good it takes a certain somebody to have that patience to sit through that silence, and not feel awkward and be like, it’s gonna come. What I find that I’ve had to do with my clients is because thoughts could come to you like in the shower, you know, and anyways, yeah, and I’m trying to get people into a mechanism of making sure that actually note that down, you know, and we’ve got, we’re starting to bring it innovation and technology into our agency, which I might have mentioned to you before, in passing is, you know, really sharing and having their space where they drop that, you know, whether that’s in a video format or so we’ve actually got, let it goes in straight away in a way that the Right, I can just didn’t really understand, okay, this is the solution. This is the framework that I kind of shared with you before. And that habit will enable and empower them to get way more content. But it’s also very relieving, like you found like sharing the content is very much, you know, you’re getting it out there. But creating this habit of constantly sharing those moments, that aha moment for you, is, I think, the way to really be good in content, like you have noted down like this, like Justin, well, she puts it on all on his notes. And then he sits there on Saturday and filters through that, right. I’ve interviewed people who, you know, put it straight into Asana board, or Trello boards, and they’ve got this cadence. I think that for me, like, as I started, like, kind of scaling my business, I started realising that sometimes some people come on calls, and they’re just not able to go to the depth in that moment with us. But they need to really think it through because they didn’t prepare for the call or so I find with those type of people, like a good thing to do is just like go and have a mechanism to drop those
Joe:
thoughts. Yeah, I’m the same, I definitely encourage you know, whether it’s like a whatsapp voice know, a quick text or a LinkedIn message, I can capture it somewhere and get it across to me in any kind of raw format. It always helps. And then for me, personally, yeah, my iPhone notes is an absolute jungle. I’m trying to get some sort of filtering, like some folders and stuff in place, but you definitely need Yeah, if you have a thought, you need to get it down. Because not only does that mean, you don’t lose it, but it actually clears the runway for the next the next door to come through as well. I find so that’s a huge one.
Mel:
Exactly. And, and I think it’s funny, because you said you don’t drop it in WhatsApp, I used to do the same with clients, like just drop it in WhatsApp. But then when you scale to so many like, yeah, now you’re getting like, frickin like 20 to 30 people like staring at on what’s up and you’re like, Oh, my God, I can’t. So yeah, it was, it’s funny, because, you know, when you start your journey, and you’re like most writing that can work up to like two, three people, and it’s like, really good. And they’re really, you know, dropping it. And then you can all of a sudden go How the hell do I handle everyone? Like, they’re talking to me here, they’re talking to me, they’re like, you need like, customers, like you need like submission where they put this stuff because you don’t want to be bombarded, especially while you’ve got your full time job. And there’s like, drop thoughts all, you know, going on all the time. So yeah, I found initially, when I remember when I started out, it was like, yeah, just like, you know, whatever, like, you know, just drop it there. And we’ll pick it up, and we’ll download it. And then when it got to, like 1520 people doing this at once and all my VAs were like, I can’t handle this, I don’t want to work in this crazy environment, we had to come up with systems and processes. And I started realising God’s people are different, they want to work differently. They don’t want to come on a call. And sometimes I got like, bored sitting there in silence for an hour and like thinking, well, like, they’re not the type of people that want to do this, you know, where some people really most of the time are really good, like, but yeah, you might find that as you start sort of taking, if you ever get to that sort of now volume, you really need to think about systems that is actually going to liberate you still as a entrepreneur, and give you that space for your family as well. But you’re not constantly getting Yeah.
Joe:
Well, and this is the thing I definitely, yeah, the systems and the structure. I mean, even even at a small scale, for me the most the thing for me is I’ve got very limited free time. So yes, it needs to be efficient, it needs to be used effectively. And you’re right, that kind of I think it’s the other almost danger, or the you know, the challenge with the platform is you’re just reading stories about here’s how to make 10k a month and I’ve done this, and I went from this to that, but yes, you know, not all these people will be in the same situation as you like, they won’t all have, you know, kids and a family. And yes, you know, we’re moving house and different things like that, like things will happen in life, that then it can be harder or easier for you to produce content and kind of serve your clients. So your rights, the system piece, and the efficiency to scale, I think is such an underrated kind of challenge to solve to get
Mel:
Yeah. How do you like, how do you write copy at the moment for, you know, clients and yourself? Is it you know, do you kind of what’s your process to do it as efficiently because we’re old time poor as well. Right. And that’s why we want to work with post writers as well. So we I think, just to recap, so far, we’ve gotten to the point where like Put your ideas down in a notes or somewhere so and come prepared to talk otherwise it can be. It can be a very underwhelming experience for both parties, you know, agency, ghost writer and yourself. So that’s something that’s really important that you get into a cadence of, you know, putting your thoughts down. Now, the second step is once you’ve done that, you can actually write when you’ve got the time and the space to write. So how much time would you put aside for content creation and writing? And what’s the process?
Joe:
Yeah, it’s, it’s a tricky one, it’s something I definitely need to get better at. So I think for, for myself, because like I said, I’m more relaxed with my own brand. And if I get a thought that I think is interesting, I’ll kind of just, it’ll be there. And I’ve built that that muscle now where I can pretty much kind of just write it, leave it in the outbox until the next day. Yep, review it quickly, you know, tie it up, make sure it still reads well, and then I let it go. For clients, what I try and do is, in the call, I’m staying 100% Present. So I don’t take notes, like everything is recorded and transcribe so there’s no need to be scribbling anything down or doing anything other than listening to stories. And so I do that, through the call, see where the conversation goes, then what I want to try and do as quickly as I can after the call. So in the next in the following two days is listen to it back on, like, I’m one of those people like on two times speed. Because you’ve already been in the conversation. So you kind of know, you’re just trying to get the points and the key stories. And at that point, I am, like writing out. This was a segment of a story on that was another one. So kind of just figuring out what are the what are the bones of this conversation, but listen to it end to end, so get a feel for kind of how it went. And then then I’ll jump into the transcript. And so I’ll go, you know, the five minute mark was when she told me about this. And look at that first story and kind of for me, I’m trying to connect back to how I felt when I heard the story. Now, what was the interesting bit for me, like, where did it stand out? What What kind of engage me and I start with that. And then work from there. And I’ll try and do like a rough draft of each one. And then leave them all I can. And I’ll have to, I never have enough time. But I think it’s good to just leave them to marinate, and then come back the next day or a few days later to review. And at that point, I’m not adding anything, I’m just cutting. I’m only ever trying to cut words, I’m never trying to add words on the second time through. And then I do I read them out loud I can I think you need to read them aloud to yourself that tells you where the sentences are a bit clunky or be too long, or it just doesn’t flow, right? Use Hemingway as well, just for you know, if you’re familiar with the story, it’ll, it might be really feel really simple to you, but you put it in there. And if you’re seeing reds and oranges in Hemmingway, then you do a bit of work there. But that’s roughly the process I’m trying to. The key for me is trying to listen back to the content. Like as soon as I can after I’ve heard it to make sure that I the feelings and stuff are still there. Like I’ll have in my mind where the good stories or the best stories were. And I want to focus on those first.
Mel:
What about I want to go back to when you just said like, okay, when you’re in the call, you don’t do any kind of writing because you want to be present. And it’s auto inside of the meeting. Like a transcription.
Joe:
Use Google. So yeah, I just had to google recording. Yeah. Yeah, it transcribes. Yeah,
Mel:
yeah. So you’ve got the transcription. I’ve seen writers also, you know, punching away and taking notes too. And I think yeah, like, just use otter. My gut, like, what if I was a copywriter? And I’m not, but I’m more of a strategist that would dump stuff. So what I try and do during the call sometimes, just because I want to speed up my process, right? Because I know I’ve got like, as it’s happening, and it’s I think it’s a muscle, you know, to be alert enough is like, I’m just copying in the moment and pasting, but this is post one, post two, post three posts for post five, just because of the inefficiency of then having to go through this again. Yeah, the second time. And I’m actually got the transcript like the audit transcript open while they’re talking because it’s actually taking notes right then. And I’m trying to go okay, that was an idea, copy and paste that into the Google Doc. So I actually know I could have got post one post two, I’ve got the framework or already so I don’t have to do the second round of listening because the transcriptions happening.
Joe:
I need that second part of my brain. I haven’t maybe haven’t built that yet. I have
Mel:
some time. because you’re trying to be good at the interview and be present for them, and you want to make sure you’re nodding, and they’re not thinking, like then talking to nobody. So you’re very, like, you know, aware, but I’ve let them know, like, by the way, like, I want you to keep talking, if you see me like looking away, like, you know, I’m actually trying to make sure that your structure of your poster, right, it just the reason I started doing that is because I started, it was just like, couldn’t scale past four to five people. Because so much time was being taken again to sit there and review that piece. But then once I I don’t know, if you’ve yet done this in some of my more advanced content creators, now. they’ve mastered chat GPT to an extent where what they’re doing is, so those like draft transcripts that they’ve taken, they feed them through, like previous posts of this person and say, you know, let’s let’s like, you know, write in this way to help Boston delivery so we can together scale, like they can take on more because the more times you take on the less risk you have as a as a business owner, because if one leaves now you’ve got like six or seven so you’re not like heavily dependent and, you know, going oh my god, I only have like, they’re all that one’s leaving now. I’m not gonna miss dress, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but also still delivering quality. So once she wants that is prepped, then it’s like what you do, like everyone should take a break, I think it’s absolute, and come back to it in a day or two, with a refresh mine. And then just, I think I love the fact that you said like, you know, and then just tone it down. But I feel like if that piece can happen as close to that interview, like, you know, as possible, with, you know, the draft to be set within like, sort of, that’s the interview set, you know, and the better you get to interview, you can keep shortening that time, like 30 minutes, if you start organising it, and then you can have your next hour where you just prep, yeah, almost needs to follow. Immediate I find to really help you be in the zone other than you have to eat every time we have to get back into a task. Yeah, you’re right. You’re now again, restarting your brain. So I feel that, you know, it’s like, an hour and a half, two hours along with the interview needs to be put aside to prep. So you don’t have to touch in a in a in a way that’s like against Saudi because your brain takes time to read against that and thinking about that person, and you have to go look at their LinkedIn, look at how they speak. And, again, get your brand and that takes about 20 minutes. Actually, I realised. Yeah, so yeah, that yeah, I realised
Joe:
it’s very true. I mean, I think it for me, it’s a function of like having the day job and stuff, you know, so I’ll squeezing the interview. Go after work. Yes, go and feed the kids. You know, you know what? You’re absolutely right. Like the closer you can do it or stay in that, in that customers like, tone of voice? Yes, man in that interview in that conversation? Definitely. You’re going to get better results. I I just need to find a 30 hour day.
Mel:
Yes, yes, you need to, you just need to interview and go commit to you’ll get more faster at it as well the more you do it right as you push yourself into doing it, but I actually recorded so actually like the timing my copywriters as to when they start and restart. And it was so interesting, because they would like when they would do one post, like just one, it would sometimes take them 30 to 40 minutes, just a write that post. But once they started writing their second post, or the third post, if they were in a batch, the next few posts became 13 minutes, 15 minutes, 10 minutes. And it was so interesting for me to observe that phenomenon, because I was like, oh my god, like I’ve been sending them like one thing get out or four things a week. But look at how I can speed because they’re now having to like get in the mind again, like then I have to refi that brain. Now they can actually be way more efficient. So if you go in again and have another call and now the call, right? You’re much more closer to the client again. But if you can, like you know, do it in while you’re in the mode, you can really efficiently deliver if you can find that headspace.
Joe:
Yeah, I definitely relate to that. Like, I’ve definitely find if I need to clear the window. And if you’re right, that first one takes a while. But once you start setting them all out, and you can kind of then really get on a roll. And I think the quality improves as well like you, you make them more consistent, and they really look and feel like the person you’re writing for. So you certainly need to have kind of blocks of time to tackle it. Yeah, exactly. For me, it’s usually a Sunday morning or a Sunday afternoon where it’s just it’s writing time.
Mel:
Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting. Yeah, that you say it’s Sunday for you. I think for me, it’s like Monday morning when I’ve had like, my space to like, think and I’m like in the mode, but sometimes it’s not. Yeah, it’s like random like it just feel like it like I need to do it right. Like, I want to exercise this and it just know, it’s like tingling. And you’re like, Yeah, feeling it,
Joe:
I’ve started to get that recently. And that’s, you know, that’s the other thing because you read content about, you know, here’s my routine, or, here’s exactly, you have to do this. But I’m very much a feeling type. person, and you’re right, it’s a sensation that you get, sometimes you, if you haven’t ridden in a few days, or whatever you want to, you want to get something out, you feel like it’s starting to kind of clog up a bit. It’s really weird, but I’m not, I’m not overly structured. Person with it, particularly my own stuff. My own stuff will come to me whenever, like in the middle of night or early in the morning. But it’s so true. It is that like almost that spidey sense of having something that you want to share.
Mel:
And creative people, I think this is something that’s really important if you work with ghost writers or creative people, you know, they, as you heard, like the process, some people think like, yeah, here’s a task, just go get it done. And we’ll have it back to them in 24 hours, how hard is it just right. But listening to that process of interview, then putting it away, and then you know, coming back to it, and then you know, you wing it over another, you know, two days and giving them that space. And that process, even, you should use it if you’re not using a creative, but that’s the way to really produce good quality. But sometimes people don’t understand how we think as a creative, right, like, how the process is actually much more lengthier than George’s just sits there and just punches it out, you know, after the call, and he’s 12 Brilliant posts.
Joe:
Yeah, I think it’s such an interesting balance between, I think that the thing that I struggle with is the quality. Versus like, you don’t want a gold plate post. Like, I think at the end of the day, I started thinking about LinkedIn now as a stream of content, you know, you’re, you’re building a library of content as you go. And it’s very unlikely that one posts that you write, if you spend extra time really perfecting it and shaping up to be the best posts in the world is going to change your life. You know, for me, it’s it’s about the consistency and making sure you are sharing the thoughts and one thing that I’ve gotten better at is his and I’m not gonna say focus on you know, quantity over quality, but just knowing when the message is there, the pains there the solutions that you know, you’ve you’ve done the job of that post, and you’re contributing to your library or the clients library on that day, and you need to move on to the next piece. I think that’s for me as not really a perfectionist, but just wanting kind of everything to be right and good. You can get stuck, especially early on you can get stuck trying to rework it and rework and you just need to let it go sometimes and and focus on moving to the next thing.
Mel:
Agreed. And same with spelling errors. Like you know, don’t kill yourself over if like something went out and it’s like, American writing, like I see some people like fretting over it going 90 To delete it, like it’s social, Ill forgotten in like, you know, a day. Yes, it’s not the end of the world. To, to again, summarise the covered, you know how you should ideate how you should turn up and either interview yourself and ask yourself questions like or if someone’s asking you a question, write it down in notes, or you know, in a in a sauna and a Trello board so that you’re really capturing it come with you know those thoughts to a meeting if you are going to work with a ghost writer, and also be really kind of mindful about your Ghost Riders process of how long it’s going to take them to really get you something back that’s of quality in the process of how Ghost Riders are working with you now if you go the extra step after a ghost ride and you want those pieces to be turned into creative, you know, that’s so once once the ghostwriter like Joe has written your stuff, it then couldn’t need to go to another person who is a creative person in graphics and they’ll take some of those concepts and turn it into some nice imagery or they’ll turn it into a carousel of they’ll go to a video edit and that second process is another time that is you know added in so that’s something sometimes people go and also forget that you know there if you want it to go not just be copy and you want like other things added to it. There’s the next element. How do you Joe like sort of go about deciding on should it be a creative should someone add an image to this like you know, do you kind of like you know, give suggestion And to your clients.
Joe:
I mean, I it’s tricky for me, because I’m definitely a copy kind of by default, like, it’s nothing. It’s my strongest suit. I’ve been working through carousels and you know, the algorithm on LinkedIn seems to be supporting carousels quite a bit. So that’s always interesting. But yeah, I think it’s, it’s a bit of a feel, to be honest, like, I think you just, I definitely lean towards, like a nice written story. But I know that a lot of people are kind of skimming LinkedIn, they’re not really they’re looking for colours and for for different things. So I think you, it also depends on the client, like the clients I work with, they’re not necessarily comfortable with the video of themselves up there talking about things. I think, what I like for myself personally as well with with the copy post is you can kind of refine it and put it put it how you want it. And there’s a bit more of a almost a barrier there or just a protective shield between you and the audience. But it’s something to be honest, I’m a bit worried about like, as a kind of a copy, lead. Creator, what does it mean? What does the algorithm change? Like? How does how do we stay relevant, I guess, what do you think?
Mel:
Yeah, it’s really interesting, because I really love the simplicity that copy lates everything. But for me, the way I’m starting to work with my ghost writing team, is I’m saying to them, this client, especially after my recent event with Richard Vander Blum, and he really, you know, solidified this thought for me was one thought, like, whatever your client tells you, one thought you as a ghost, write a joke. And now use that and give that in five format. You know, you can give that as a text post, you can then give that as the same thing can be converted into a carousel the same, you know, story. And then it can also be given as a video if they shared that as a video, the thought, and you can even convert it and use it as a poll, if you really wanted to, you know, say, you know, what do you think about this, so more and more my business, but what I’m trying to say is going and saying repurpose it in the form is because everyone is consuming in a different way, because we all have different learning habits. So some people on this alone, through audio, some people are learning through reading, like, if you don’t enjoy reading your, I’m not going to read your text posts, then, you know, I need visuals for me as a learner. So we all have different learning styles. So by writing the same thing, five times different formats, you’re going to open yourself up to potentially different audiences. Very true. Yeah. And with videos, the reason I like it, I think it builds like you can feel an aura about someone, like the trust that you feel, is really much more bigger. And it now allows you to have that extra format that your ghostwriter can go and just caption up as well. So apparently, a message takes like seven time for someone to register that and get it so then you need to deliver that message like in those different formats than in my opinion. So yeah, I’m really pushing my ghost riders now to be like, let’s work together to write, you know, the piece like that we get in five different formats. Initially, for a post for clients, we can actually understand which formats work and the second time when we batch their content again, let’s go and look at which formats worked on then stick to a format based on what went well, for them personally and what felt good. But yeah, I think it’s a really, I think the thing with Yeah, Richard vanderbloemen It’s like he’s doing it five different ways. So that probably is probably best practice if you can, or at least get free format cell from one one thought.
Joe:
Yeah, well, and you’ve kind of touched on there, like, I guess the idea of repurposing, which for me, initially when I started felt like a bit of a dirty word. But I think it’s original. Well, yeah. You feel that way. Yeah, but at the end of that, like you’ve had that thought originally. And as you said, like people need to see and hear the message multiple times for it to sink in and you never know exactly who’s gonna see each message. So one thing that I like I really like the idea of repurposing across media like across content Yeah, types it’s an issue and I met my need to get myself a nice microphone and
Mel:
yeah, and getting videos. I thought it was dirty as well. Though every purpose when I felt it was like a laziness that people were doing it but then I had Melanie Borden last week saying I don’t even create content anymore. I just look through shield and repub. Wasn’t she like, you know, 170,000 followers, Richard more, I don’t really create much, maybe four pieces a month, I’m just really sharing my same things because I’m producing, I’ve really spent time for 12 months to 24 months producing really high quality content. Yeah. And I’m like, how does it be relevant? Like, how do they create like evergreen content like that, you know, but this is what top creators are doing. They’re not hustling every day and producing at the rate like we are. So I think,
Joe:
yeah, the key there is, you said, high quality, you know, own the most successful bands can just go and play all their old hits, you know, you need to fill up the catalogue of hits before you can just go and play them everywhere. So I think that’s when you are starting out, you’ve got to get to a point where you’ve got some high quality stuff. And that’s a muscle you flex, and you build over time, and when you do get to that point, and I’ve only kind of felt comfortable starting to repurpose some different things in the last few weeks, couple of months. But you need to have some hits to kind of, and I don’t mean viral like, not many people are gonna go viral, but you need to have stuff that does resonate, that has triggered an action in the person that you were kind of writing that piece to. And once you’ve got a bit of that, then you certainly do need to, I think it makes sense to replay some of those hits. Yeah, I
Mel:
love that, that was such a great, great thought that you need to have hits in order to replay it. So you got to bank up those and have a go first, and then you know, collect them and then you can replay it. And I think they just had so many hits that it’s just like, and they can keep playing it again and again. Love that. So I want to close out at the end, I’ve heard your pain point about working full time and, you know, also having to produce content. And I’ve had other people on here who have been very successful in doing it very well. So I’ve had Liam Darmody on here, Rosie Chang, who all have full time jobs and have become mega superstars on LinkedIn. And I would say they do a very similar strategy to you they every day, get up, share up write their piece before they go to work, you know, and on the way to work, they engage with their piece, and do it consistently, like every day, you know, and they’ve found their position. So I think it’s totally possible to do what you’re doing and you know, become, and that they want to actually stay and continue to do full time work, because I think it brings so much energy to their work as well with creating their personal brand. So, you know, the struggle that you have, is probably felt by lots of other influences who I’ve seen just become rapidly, you know, over time by doing it consistently so big?
Joe:
Well, I definitely, I think as well, don’t be afraid of scheduling. You know, I made sure like, I scheduled for the morning pre work like 7:30am, my stuff will go out. And I do that because I don’t want my day job thinking I’m sitting on LinkedIn. During the day, you know, I’m working out of hours on my content. And I’m scheduling to a time when, you know, I want people to kind of think of me and I know for myself getting into work or getting ready in the morning often LinkedIn as a part of, you know, that time of the day. But you scheduling, like if you don’t have the clear calendar to write and post at the same time every day, like use user scheduling, and right when you can and just and just build your content out that way. But it’s good to hear that there’s other people kind of out there doing the same thing. Like I feel very lucky, to be honest, I feel really lucky to be able to, you know, have a day job. And that gives me the freedom to create. And kind of the other thing, which we haven’t talked about which I thought about kind of coming into this. For me having a day job, I think it really helps with my pricing and like my strategy for my creation because I’m like my little limited limited spare time is has a value to me. Yeah, and so the cost of my service is the cost because it’s going to be my Sunday evening. And I can’t just make it cheaper and fit more in to try and grow my business. So I find having to protect my personal time and space has actually helped me. So I think that’s a really common problem is people not pricing themselves adequately. Yeah, I can’t afford to do that, you know, I it’s got a limited amount of bandwidth. So you know, the value is there and the investment is aligned with that. And the efficiency piece as well. Hence, if I’ve got my window for ghostwriting, I need to lock in and write and produce. So if you do have a day job and you’re you’re kind of trying to juggle the both thing, and you started this call was talking about advantage. I think it can be an advantage.
Mel:
Yeah, yeah, I think then you can actually price in a way that you can build You know, with sustainability, but you can like price in a way, it’s not going to hurt you so much. If you don’t close, you know, because you’ve got this other safety is what I think you’re saying is, you know, whereas if you come in roar, and you don’t have that protection, sometimes you’ve got to take your to fill all those hours, somehow, sometimes, those hours can’t all be filled as quickly as you’d like. So you know, doing a side, hustle and building up, you can, you can charge a lot more, because you don’t have all those hours to fill.
Joe:
Yeah, I think that, you know, I definitely think the trap there is, and I’ve thought a lot about, you know, especially early on, when I’d get some initial engagement and things I’d thought I’d thought a lot about, I’m just gonna go for it, you know, full time and going from the interest and the engagement to a lead to actually, you know, a paying client is hard, and you might get your DNS will get full at different times, and there’ll be times when you think nothing is happening, and then all of a sudden, multiple people will be talking, you will see that, you know, you can do it, and you’ve got a multimillion dollar business on your hands, I would strongly recommend, prove it, you know, test it, prove it, build that kind of base, like I’m nowhere near ready to go full time into it. So just yeah, having that stability of an income of a salary can can help you play with freedom in your writing and your your creating, but, you know, check before you asked before you make the leap full time, because it can, like you said, it can be hard to kind of fill all those hours.
Mel:
I agree, a grant, that’s a really great recommendation. And I think especially for you know, in the marketing world and in the world that we’re in, it’s come in come out is a very normal thing. So I think you’ve given great advice that, you know, you’ve got to, if you’ve got like family, or you’ve got other dependencies, you know, it’s not you just you and your yourself, going for it, it’s going to have impacts to you know, you, yourself, and you if it’s just you and yourself and you, you can just eat peanut butter and jam, and it’ll live on your mom’s couch. And you know, it’s not going to matter. Maybe it works for people that can, you know, be in that kind of environment and maybe in a different place, you know, but for most people, I think get doing it in a more sustained way. And also then being able to price and be like, I’ve only got this many hours, it’s much more sustainable and will take longer, as well, but it’s sustainable, and you’re in a more comfortable zone. And you can actually then reach your creativity, I think better to you’re not like pushing yourself, like a crazy person to be like, I need to get this I need to get that. That’s it and choose
Joe:
100%. And, you know, I think that’s hard as well, because a lot of us are following the big creators to try and learn from them. And, and you are just kind of bombarded with success stories. And that’s fantastic. And like, it’s amazing to know what’s possible. But it’s, you know, it’s not the reality for everyone. And so just kind of bearing that in mind, I think is so important. And in like you’d much rather have, and this is the situation I’m in now, you know, I’m occasionally quite busy, like I do have to spend evenings and weekends delivering for clients. But like, that’s a much better problem to have than trying to figure out where the next one is going to come from, and how am I going to feed myself and all that? Yes. So yeah, this, you talked about a sustainable approach, I think is so important.
Mel:
Yeah, I mean, the not everyone’s gonna get the matt Barker of the world. It’s not going to be, you know, that’s one in a million. And that was a lot of risk taking. And I still remember the day that Matt Barker reached out to me about 18 months ago and said, you know, I’ll do $40 per post, my joke of, you know, he’s 1818 months ago, he was like, Yep, I want to work at $40 per post for your clients. So that and that you must be like, going really, like I’ve got, you know, in my DMs that’s where it started. And now he’s like, you know, so huge, and it’s, um, he didn’t, you know, start where he is he just went for it, I think and took high high risk, and it repaid that, but that’s where it is, you know, that’s where you have to price as well when you starting and you got to fill those out and you don’t know what’s going on. It’s the it’s the reality of, you know, do you do that? Or do you put yourself in a position where, you know, it’s sustainable and you don’t have to drop so low, but you can, you know, you can create what you want in a different way. There’s lots of different parts where like the fact you mentioned that for you know, that there’s different options for people with different you know, family situations, situations that they’ve got awesome. Really enjoyed the chat hope peace People listening on, got value about you know how to sort of go about engaging with a ghostwriter or writing for yourself and how to come up with the ideas and how to actually refine at the end, we really wanted to make sure that you guys could like in a listen on and understand how even you know to engage with yourselves or a ghost rider in the process of it. So hope you got a lot of value. If you want to, you know, ask any further questions. We will be sharing both of our LinkedIn so feel free to reach out to both of us. We’re always happy to share more enticed anything in you that we didn’t cover. So thanks, Joe for coming on. Enjoyed the chat.
Joe:
Yeah, likewise. Thanks for having me mill. Good to be a LinkedIn nobody talking about LinkedIn somebody.
Mel:
Oh, that’s a good ending. Thanks, Joe. Bye. You’re listening to innovative minds.